Time for the big Tape Arguement Join In

[Phillip]

I have trouble with mouth leaks and have now tried a couple of different chin straps. I found a chinstrap that works, but only if I tighten it so much that it leaves marks on my face for about 5 hours.

Now everyone says if you can't stop mouth leaks, you have to go full face.

Everyone also says don't tape your mouth shut because you can vomit, asphyxiate, and die. Now I use 3m paper tape 3/4" wide and can actually open my mouth with the tape on, but it is just enough pressure to keep my mouth shut at night. I DO NOT USE DUCT TAPE!

I see a full face mask as a possible cause of asphyxiation and death also in case of vomitting, but it has a "quick release" that must be way quicker than taking off a piece of tape.

I know I have sleep apnea, but it is not a must for me to spend half a day disfigured from strap marks. Keep in mind, I do NOT want to die from asphyxiation, suffocation, or anything else. I have no death wish and only want a clear understanding of why the "right" type of tape is so bad.

I know that nobody here is a medical professional. I want to hear from the people who think tape is ok and why and those who think not and why.

[Mr Mango]

I know some sleep specialists who dont agree with chin straps. I had one and it made no difference. Too much pressure can cause this and reducing the pressure was my cure of air coming out of my mouth.

Take a human being and attach an air hose to their nose and pump air into its body.

Now you know when the air pressure is right is when the air stops coming out their orifices. You dont tape their mouths, plug their ears and anus to gain a good pressure.

Just look at what you are trying to acheive. A good sleep or no apneas.

People are not dying in their thousands over OSA. But there are alot of people sick because they are not diagnosed or are not compliant to CPAP therapy.

My point is back the pressure off with the doctors permission so you dont have to worry about vomitting , asphyxiating and dying in your sleep because you tape your mouth up with duct tape.

Why would you go to that extreme. Some people get obsessive about apneas and do absolutely nothing to alleviate the numbers of the apneas. Is there anything you can do outside of CPAP therapy to help yourself. Taping your mouth with duct tape is indicative of the failings of your therapy in helping you.

[Mr Mango]

Sorry you said you didnt use duct tape. I see any tape used for holding the mouth closed as bad as duct tape.

[Phillip]

Thanks Mr. Mango. I am on APAP at 7 to 13, and have no problems until the pressure gets around 10. The APAP is determining the necessary pressure for me is my understanding. Backing off the pressure is not an alternative since I was titrated at 10 and my APAP spends most of the night at 10.

And NO ..... I do NOT use duct tape. I use 3M paper tape that is very easy to remove and almost porous enough to breath through.

Thanks.

[Toth]

This 'tape' question is really a matter of the "convential wisdom" and "legal liability" issues.

No doctor is going to go around recommending people tape their mouths shut at night.

Now someone with OSA may not have vomitted in their sleep for years but a doctor will still warn of these 'risks'.

Its true that the 'micropore' paper tape is porous and can be removed by mere tongue pressure or facial muscles, but I still recommend the use of folding over the ends to fashion your own 'quick release tabs' each night. I do not consider them necessary, only sensible precautions. Sort of like lugging around a spare tire in the trunk of your car.

I've used tape. I used it in desperation after trying other, less radical, methods. For me, tape worked quite well. Chin straps of various sizes and shapes did not work. Tape did.

So I used tape. That doesn't mean I went around recommending it right and left. It is merely the last item on the list of options available to mouth breathers or those who for whatever reason allow their lips to part at night and suffer the effects of the air escaping into their bedroom rather than going down the airway to keep it open.

Those who wish to ventilate their bedrooms at night via a cpap are free to do so, but those who are out of other options should always remember that tape is indeed an option and these oft-repeated dire warnings are really not serious risks for most people. I know of only one death of someone who was using a cpap machine at the time and that death did not involve the use of tape. I have chatted with dozens of people who use tape regularly or atleast have experimented with tape, not one of them feels its a particularly hazardous choice they've made. Not one of them made that choice as some sort of whimsical entertainment. They've made that choice because they've pretty much exhausted their other options and see no use in going through this cpap nonsense if all they are going to be doing is blowing the air into the bedroom instead of their airway.

[Phillip]

Thanks Toth....very thoughtful reply. I do tab the ends as you suggested and am quite sure if I vomitted at night the tape would be force off of my mouth being paper tape.

I am just sick of people wanting to take me out back and beat me when I mention tape. I would rather they just say, you know there is a 1 in a zillion chance it could cause asphyxiation but in reality, it is not that much worse than a full face mask (if at all worse).

Thanks
Phillip

[Phillip]

Only 2 posters have a position on this? Quite a big membership here for such a lack of opinions.

[Dragonlady]

[sleep talker]

Okay, here's my 2 cents. I think other things should be tried before taking the awful step of taping your mouth shut. That's just not a good idea no matter what kind of tape is used.

It really isn't the lips that are leaking. It's the seal of the tongue base against the soft palate that leaks. There is always a slight positive pressure in the airway, even during waking hours with no pap obviously. So your body does know how to keep this closed to some extent already.

Sometimes it's just a simple matter of not enough moisture in the mouth that breaks the seal of the tongue base and soft palate. You can try more humidification with your CPAP or even use an over the counter preparation such as 'Entertainer's Secret' before bedtime to moisten your mouth.

If that doesn't work, try a new pillow, or even a towel rolled up to act as a cervical pillow. Place this right under your neck and see if the different position keeps your
tongue base from leaking inside your mouth. Or, try the opposite and use a bigger pillow under your head to have it tilted up more. I have no clue which may work better for any given individual.

The third and best option, actually, is to get a specially made dental appliance such as a Herbst appliance. The Herbst appliance is two plates (one for the upper teeth and one for the lower) that gets held closed by small elastic bands. If a person would need to cough or vomit, the force needed to open the mouth can over come the bands relatively easily. This appliance can also accept a build up of dental wax to further create a seal in the back of the mouth. The one drawback here is that these are costly to make.

Finally, FF masks are also an option, but if you are breathing through your nose and constantly blowing the tongue base and soft palate seal out into the mask, this will be quite annoying, and not really much of a help.

[Phillip]

Thanks Dragonlady and Sleep talker. I am still waiting for some of the negative posters though. I am not looking only for people on my side.

You know there is an Oracle mask made by Fisher & Paykel that you put in your mouth and strap it around your head. It even comes with nose plugs. It appears you can have an oral mask and block your nose safely, but you can't have a nasal mask and block your mouth safely???????? Does this make sense to anyone?

Am I the 1 person in the world who just can't uderstand this?

[rested gal]

I agree with Toth. He said it so well for those of us for whom no other methods stop mouth air leaks. I also agree absolutely with what sleep talker said about the tongue being the key to a seal inside the mouth. If a consistent tongue seal just can't be achieved, then tape is not a bad thing to resort to, imho.

I've been able to get a great tongue seal using frequenseeker's idea - a homemade DIY mouthguard. I use that most nights now, but still go back to tape occasionally.
Dec 01 2004 subject: mouth leak solution, cheap DIY oral appliance

Of the three types of tape I use, the one that consistently holds the best is, unfortunately, expensive:

3M's Tegaderm "transparent dressing with label" - I can cut the 4 x 4 1/2 inch size in half for two night's worth of taped mouth. Seals great, but can't make grab tabs. The way to remove it in the morning is punch a hole in the middle of it with your finger, take hold of the edges of the hole and peel.

The other two I use are better if a person coughs often during the night. A strong cough hurts one's cheeks if you can't quickly lift a corner of the tape to let the cough escape. Grab tabs make that easy to do in a hurry.

Johnson & Johnson waterproof adhesive tape - It's the next best for "holding". I use the two inch wide size. Two strips of it, placed horizontally slightly overlapping each other. I turn down a bit of each end of each strip, sticking it to itself, for handy grab tabs. The two strips slightly overlapping extend well beyond the corners of the mouth and well above and below the lips - a big patch over the mouth. Re-sticks pretty well if it has to be lifted for a cough.

Johnson & Johnson Sports Tape - 3 inch size. One strip of this wider tape covers well. Doesn't stick as firmly as the regular adhesive tape. I use this only if I've run out of the regular. Doesn't re-stick very well after being lifted for a cough.

Micropore tape didn't stick anywhere near well enough to control my mouth leak problem.

[sleep talker]

I just spent my valuable time posting about practicable advice and alternatives to the problem and you say you want to hear only the negative arguments? What is that supposed to mean? If you really wanted a discussion about the Oracle, why didn't you say so? I don't mind if anyone can make the Oracle work for them. Be my guest. It's a huge waste of money for a lot of people that should be trying other things first. It's reasonable to warn people of this.

[Kat8087]

I love my tape. I use the Blenderm tape with the end turned under about a quarter inch. There are no straps, no marks, no more unsightly mustache (just kidding), and using tape has stopped my teeth grinding - because I don't subconsiously keep them gritted together trying to keep my mouth closed.

Nobody tries to talk to me after I go to bed, and if the phone rings the people who do not know me and I probably don't want to listen to anyway hang up when they hear the muffled sounds. The friends who call know to just keep talking.

My dog knows that when I grunt at him it means quit whatever it is he is doing.

I have used the tape when I knew I was sick, including when I had the flu. I have never in my life thrown up without waking up first, and that held true even with the flu.

My biggest problem is when I need to cough or sneeze and forget the tape is there. One day I will blow out my cheeks like that.

I did make one concession to the possiblity of trouble. I told a friend who is on the rescue truck at the fire dept, that if they ever find me dead in my bed with a hose wrapped around my neck and my mouth taped shut, that it was an accident They were amazed and wanted to come over and look.

Bottom line - I would not have made any progress with cpap if it were not for the folks here who let me know tape was ok.

Kat

[rested gal]

Phillip, if you will use the Search feature for key words "tape" or "mouth air leak", I believe you'll turn up plenty of pros and cons, including the negatives you say you want to see.

A Search for "Oracle" will turn up quite a few posts about that interface.

[Phillip]

Now I am starting to hear some things that are helpful. Thanks rested gal and Kat8087.

Sleep talker, I don't know how valuable your time is, but I never said I was looking only for negatives to my situation. I am looking for both positive and negative, but have seen more positive than negative and want the whole story.

Email me your address though and I will pay for your time.

I apparently have a very mild leak problem as 3M Micropaper Tape easily stops my problem. It is just that once the leak starts, it is as if the pressure says here is the way out, and quickly it builds until it is all coming out of my mouth.

Phillip