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Paul
Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 217
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 Posted: December 19 2005 Post subject: Info for Dizzy's benefit - Hard data on Pillar/Dental Combo |
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In a separate thread, "Dizzy" our resident "anonymouse" internet worrier had the following brave words to say regarding our stats with the Pillar/Dental combo:
| Quote: | I'd sure like to see before and after scans of jpnasty's data especially where it confirms the numbers you guys have claimed. We need to see oxygen levels, spontaneous arousals, elimination of events, same sleep positions etc.
Then again, I know we'll never see that. |
In other words, to put it plainly, "Dizzy" thinks we are lying. Funny, for a guy who won't even use his real name - he is insinuating that WE are the ones who have something to hide, or are lying.
Well, "Dizzy", for your edification and peace of mind you will find below links to scans of all FIVE of my PSGs:
(1) Exhibit A: Original PSG dated 11/19/03. AHI: 21. Supine AHI: 83. Lowest O2: 83%
http://www.peshitta.org/images/psg1.jpg
(2) Exhibit B: CPAP Titration PSG dated 12/29/03. Successful CPAP Titration at 8cm water pressure. Mask: NasalAire II.
http://www.peshitta.org/images/psg2.jpg
(3) Exhibit C: Second PSG dated 3/5/04 after weight loss AHI: 29.5. REM AHI: 49.3
http://www.peshitta.org/images/psg3.jpg
(4) Exhibit D: Post-Pillar PSG dated 9/27/04 (no dental appliance) AHI: 17. REM AHI: 2.2, non-REM AHI: 19.7 (REM-AHI Notable because it should be the opposite, i.e., the REM should be higher than the non-REM. This can only be explained by the Pillar implants holding the palate while in REM sleep)
http://www.peshitta.org/images/psg4.jpg
(5) Exhibit E: Post-Pillar/Dental PSG dated 9/28/04 (very next night) AHI: ZERO POINT 3. Notable quotes from sleep doctor analyzing results:
http://www.peshitta.org/images/psg5.jpg
| Quote: | | "Significant episodes of sleep disordered breathing were not observed." |
| Quote: | | "In this study, the AHI index was within normal limits at 0.3 events per hour of sleep" |
You see, "Dizzy", I care enough about all these people here on this forum to not only let my real identity be known.....but also to prove my claims and put my sleep studies where my mouth is. I will let the people reading this judge between you and I, who is being honest and who isn't.
To everyone who is interested in treating your OSA without CPAP and without surgery: There IS hope. If the Pillar/Dental combo worked for Stoboy, Rick, Jnplasty and yours trooly - it may work for you as well.
If you are not complying with CPAP, or would otherwise like to try an alternative - I give you my proof above. I encourage everyone else who's had success with the Pillar/MRD combo to also post your sleep studies (hide your names if you want), but there are people here who need to see this and this proof is the only way to shut the "anonymouse internet worriers" up.
-PaulY |
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dizzy
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| Posted: December 20 2005 Post subject: |
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Well Paul THANK YOU VERY MUCH for posting your results, here's what I see from all that data (your reports) :
PSG1.jpg 11/19/03 Your Diagnostic Study Findings;
TRT: 437 Minutes.
TST: 380 Minutes.
Sleep Efficiency: 87%
Sleep Latency: 14 Minutes.
Baseline SAO2: 93% (sleep avg.)
Lowest SAO2: 83%
AHI=21 (events that cause your oxygen levels to drop).
RDI=83 (supine position).
PSG2.jpg 12/29/03 Your "Titration" Study Findings;
TRT: 377 Minutes.
TST: 208 Minutes.
Sleep Efficiency: 55%
Sleep Latency: 51 Minutes.
Baseline SAO2: (not recorded)
Lowest SAO2: (not recorded)
AHI=xx (not recorded).
RDI=83 (not recorded).
The above was with CPAP @8cm pressure using a NAII mask (and the recommendation).
PSG3.jpg 03/05/2004 a HOME SLEEP Study Findings;
TRT: 429.9 Minutes.
TST: 244.0 Minutes.
Sleep Efficiency: 56.8%
Sleep Latency: 47 Minutes.
Baseline SAO2: 97.2% (sleep avg.)
Lowest SAO2: 94. 2%
HI/AHI=29.5
Report shows Zero Apnea events seen making up the AHI=29.5 score, then it shows 176 snores or 43.3/hr, which can bump up your RDI scoring.
REM Stage RDI=49.3
RDI=29.5
No Positional changes were noted in this study. Was this one of those arm PAT studies? I am assuming this is all supine position as it wasn't noted. Note: All your other studies make mention that your condition worsens when sleeping on your back or supine position.
PSG4.jpg 09/27/2004 another PSG from Edward;
This study comments: from 11/19/03 study items found 21/hr, then talks about lateral indexes from 2.6 to 12.8/hr (sleeping on your side).
TRT: 481 Minutes.
TST: 353 Minutes.
Sleep Efficiency: 73%
Sleep Latency: 21 Minutes.
Baseline SAO2: XX% (NOT recorded, guess it wasn't important)
Lowest SAO2: 86%
AHI=17/hr (associated with drop in oxygen levels)
(then it states: REM index was 2.2/hr, non-REM was 19.7 or a total of 21.9 e.g. NO change from your inital diagnostic study).
Then the above study clearly denotes:
| Quote: | | "It should be noted there was no supine REM sleep recorded. Loud snoring occurred with supine sleep. Light snoring occurred during lateral sleep." |
Meaning: they didn't test you on your back where your are shown to have the most severe events, then they saw snoring so what ever device you were using here didn't prevent you from snoring, just like Rick, my guess this study had Pillar?
And the last one:
PSG5.jpg 09/28/2004 next day PSG from Edward;
This study comments: from 11/19/03 study items found 21/hr, then says this report is PSG with ORAL (TAP) device in place at a setting of 10.
TRT: 421 Minutes.
TST: 369 Minutes.
Sleep Efficiency: 87%
Sleep Latency: 16 Minutes.
Baseline SAO2: (NOT recorded, guess it wasn't important)
Lowest SAO2: (NOT recorded, guess it wasn't important)
AHI=0.3 (2 Hypoapneas)
This final report doesn't report your oxygen levels, nor does it report any positional data for comparison with prior studies, items seen to change severity of other PSG's. Basically, this study says your effectively treated while using the TAP Oral device.
So what does this all say? It says to me don't use Edward because they cannot even use the same reporting template for comparisons sake from A, B, C & D. But despite this, extrapolating the data, one can conclude:
From #1 you are diagnosed with OSA having a AHI=21/hr.
From #2 you are effectively treated with CPAP @8cm pressure.
From #3 you had a HOME study where your disorder increased from AHI=21/hr to AHI=29.5/Hr (increase in severity).
From #4 you had a PSG showing AHI=17 causing oxygen drop, then REM/non-REM sum of 2.2 +19.7 or RDI=21.9 or NO change from your 11/19/03 diagnostic study.
From #5 you had a follow-up PSG using the TAP dental device in place and your OSA is being effectively treated using that device AHI=.03.
So what DOES all this say about PILLAR? It says it does NOT work.
It says to me everything I have been saying from day one, it does NOT treat OSA, in fact your own studies PROVE it doesn't in fact every one of your PSG's including the last one with TAP show you continue to SNORE. That procedure doesn't even cure you of snoring!!!
Like I said all along, if the procedure does nothing to prevent the tongue from falling into the back of the throat during supine sleep, your wasting your money. That is why some UPPP's, LAUP and other procedures are not very successful, they don't prevent the tongue from falling back. ALL of your reports say the same thing, sleep in the supine position and you go from mild/moderate to severe.
All your studies prove is your TAP device WORKS, PILLAR doesn't do squat, same thing I've said all along.
THANK YOU PAUL!!! You PROVED exactly what I was saying all along.
(Please call Rick & Stubby, once they hear this, they'll be in that fetal position again and I don't want them going off the deep end  ). |
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dizzy
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| Posted: December 20 2005 Post subject: |
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dizzy wrote:
| Quote: | | Meaning: they didn't test you on your back where your are shown to have the most severe events, then they saw snoring so what ever device you were using here didn't prevent you from snoring, just like Rick, my guess this study had Pillar? |
Correction to above: you DID sleep in supine position, but NO REM was seen, most likely because of the LOUD snoring taking place during supine position (Pillar not working?)
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| Posted: December 20 2005 Post subject: |
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Paul,
This was about as predictable as the sun rising this morning.
More strawmen built for DIzzy to knock down. When you posted the history of the sleep study data, I didn't think it would be possible to distort it.
If you've noticed, Dizzy is a one-man crusade out here against pillar. Seen anyone else join in with anything but conjecture? Nope, just a bunch of "guests" that probably live at Dizzy's house.
I'll continue to point the light in the opposite direction. This guy is absolutely profiting in some way with all of this effort. Who else devotes this much time to a topic that he has no relevant interest in? For the good of the people? CPAP manufacturers have a lot to lose with the onset of a viable alternative. My best guess is that Dizzy is employed by one of the majors and his job is to steer people away from pillar/dental. He can't attack the dental side of the equation, so he spends time placing fear and doubt in people's minds about pillar.
If I get time tonight I'll post scans of my two sleep studies that show a 50% reduction in RDI with just the use of pillar alone. But why bother, when instead of the elimination of the palatal related apnea, he'll spend another post talking about how pillar isn't a "cure" since it only reduced it 50%? And I have a life outside of this during a busy holiday week.
Good luck in the debate, but understand that no amount of hard data, facts, clinical studies, research professors, etc are going to make a difference. Dizzy is highly motivated to see the "three stooges" (his words) go away and go away quickly. It's great to see you posting again, but Rick and I have already been down this road.
And Paul, if you want terrific irony, go back and read this thread:
http://www.talkaboutsleep.com/message-boards/viewtopic.php?p=92786[url]
Dizzy is advocating the use of melatonin, even though there is considerable medical debate as to it's effectiveness regarding apnea. His response to the presentation of the clinical study is priceless. This thread alone gave me as much insight as I needed about his motivation. His position on clinical research is completely inconsistent.
Have a great, great New Year with your family. 2005 has been a great year for me thanks to all you've done and presented. Realize that you're creating a great legacy and don't let one person keep you from telling your story. |
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Sleepy Stoboy
Joined: 23 Jan 2005
Posts: 449
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| Posted: December 20 2005 Post subject: |
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| Above post from Wide Awake Stoboy. |
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dizzy
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| Posted: December 20 2005 Post subject: |
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Here Stubby, let me sum it up for you so far cause I know your a little slow:
1). so far I've shown where Ricks's claims cannot be backed up, even got him to admit "Why didn't Pillar didn't cure him of snoring". When he loses that round after round, he claims he's being attacked.
2). Wait it gets better , Paul has gone on Television claiming "Pillar treated his OSA", when his own data clearly shows that was FALSE. His own data shows a AHI of 21 is still a AHI of 21, Pillar didn't treat anything for him, in fact his condition actually got worse going to a 29.5, it didn't stop his snoring, that was noted in every one of his reports up until the last with TAP, so our moviestar's television claims about Pillar are a complete fabrication. Wonder if they will put him on camera after I send them copies of the above proving otherwise.
In all the cases, the Dental Device (TAP or other) is what actually treated these jokers and they fail to acknowledge that fact and want you all to believe their little lie that Pillar some how had a hand in it. It didn't help Rick, it didn't help Paul.
So now I'm working on the last joker Stubby. Give me 5-minutes and I'll prove he's a fraud too. As for Melatonin? Sure I use and recommend it, so have millions of others when you don't want to become addicted to drugs, go to google and do your own research on Melatonin, it has been around "in use" for over 49 years and probably the most studied hormone of the hormones. Every drug company on the planet that makes sleep aids Ambien would love to see that stuff go away, it's cheap and available everywhere.
And Stubby don't forget, I had a couple strokes from OSA so probably only have about a half a brain left, but even with only half a brain left I can still run circles around jokers like you and spot a fraud when I see one. So the next time you jokers go suggesting that snake-oil to patients here, just know I'll be following right along behind showing them where it's a fraud using your very own data.
Ah com'on Stubby, be a good sport, let's see your actual before and after PSG's? I'll show where it didn't work for you either, you obviously don't know how to read a PSG report.
Again, I thank Paul for sharing his data and proving Pillar didn't do anything for him either. |
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dizzy
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Paul
Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 217
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| Posted: December 20 2005 Post subject: |
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Dizzy, Dizzy, Dizzy,
How low can you possibly go?
As always you are wrong again. PSG # 3 was NOT a home study - that was a full PSG performed at their sleep center on Peterson Ave. in Chicago.
Secondly, I went from 29.5 overall AHI in March to 17 in September.
I don't know why you are using the November 2003 data when comparing to the September 2004 data.
You are obviously skewing the numbers to make whatever point you think is valid.
Bottom line is the last full PSG before my Pillar Implants reported 29.5 AHI, and the one after Pillar implants reported 17. That's a clear 40% reduction. Stoboy has a 50% reduction that he will scan in for your education. And Jnplasty has even more reduction.
I'm taking the advice I was given by both Stoboy and Rick and ignoring you from now on, as if this data doesn't convince you nothing will - and Stoboy is right that you are probably a paid agent for the CPAP industry or a DME yourself.  |
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dizzy
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| Posted: December 20 2005 Post subject: |
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Paul wrote:
| Quote: | You are obviously skewing the numbers to make whatever point you think is valid.
Bottom line is the last full PSG before my Pillar Implants reported 29.5 AHI, and the one after Pillar implants reported 17. That's a clear 40% reduction. Stoboy has a 50% reduction that he will scan in for your education. And Jnplasty has even more reduction.
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No one is skewing anything! The problem is you cannot even read and understand your OWN friggin data. You continue to INCLUDE your TAP Dental Device data in your qualification of that other snake-oil treatment (even in your mocked up anatomy pictures).
You CANNOT INCLUDE the dental device data in weighing the effectiveness of the Pillar. IF you do, you are FABRICATING data and you are a fraud.
Go read your own studies, it's all there in black and white, I have the downloaded pictures of the data so there is no skewing of anything. |
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dizzy
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| Posted: December 20 2005 Post subject: |
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Paul wrote:
| Quote: | (4) Exhibit D: Post-Pillar PSG dated 9/27/04 (no dental appliance) AHI: 17. REM AHI: 2.2, non-REM AHI: 19.7 (REM-AHI Notable because it should be the opposite, i.e., the REM should be higher than the non-REM. This can only be explained by the Pillar implants holding the palate while in REM sleep)
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Is that NOT what you wrote above? It's still there, you even put it in RED. Like I say you don't even understand your own friggin data, REM or non-REM don't mean squat you ADD the two together and your back at your diagnostic study results from 2003 of 21/hr, meaning Pillar don't treat squat
Pillar doesn't work any way you want to look at it.
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billy bear
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| Posted: December 20 2005 Post subject: i know i know |
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| i know the last time i posted i was fed upwith my bi pap and never coming back to this msg board, but we all change and i needed to do something.. My origional was 25 in and 14 out. changed to 20 in 14 out changed to 18 in 14 out , it still blew my mask off. now turned into c pap 15 in 15 out plus i am in the process of getting a new dental appliance to pull my jaw forward so that i won't swallow my tounge. i will be fitted with the appliance on 01-02-06. the dr said to use my machine until the appliance starts to work . i will keep you posted |
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dizzy
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| Posted: December 20 2005 Post subject: |
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billy bear: I've always said the Dental Devices were shown to work, so just be sure to get what ever Dental Device you want FIRST and not the unproven treatment like these jokers suggest.
Use the $1200=$1700 you'll save to buy your spouse something nice. Good Luck. |
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Paul
Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 217
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| Posted: December 20 2005 Post subject: |
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| dizzy wrote: | | REM or non-REM don't mean squat you ADD the two together and your back at your diagnostic study results from 2003 of 21/hr, meaning Pillar don't treat squat. |
Dizzy you incommensurable fool.
AHI is not calculated by adding the total of REM-AHI and non-REM-AHI.
AHI is the overall number averaged per hour.
Even IF you were to use the older data from 2003, you still have an overal AHI of 21 to begin with versus an AHI of 17 due to Pillar. That's still a 20% reduction.
Why you would use the 2003 data of 21/hr instead of the 2004 data of 29.5/hr is beyond me. I will let the people here decide who is right and who is wrong.
You are using numbers from almost a year before the Pillar PSG, rather than from 6 months prior. I know why you are doing it, and everyone else does, too, Dizzy.
I am using the most recent numbers from the most recent PSG prior to the Pillar implants. In March of 2004 I was diagnosed with 29.5 AHI (moderate-severe) and I fell after Pillar implants in September of 2004 to 17 AHI (mild.)
29.5 to 17 is a 40% reduction. Stoboy may soon post his 50% reduction. I do hope Jnplasty posts his even bigger reduction from 43 to 13.
Pillar works. TAP works. The combination together works great.
Deal with it. |
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Paul
Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 217
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| Posted: December 20 2005 Post subject: |
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Dizzy,
Let's compare PSG4 (only Pillar) again to PSG1 (original) again, ok?
http://www.peshitta.org/images/psg4.jpg
PSG1:
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AHI: 21
SUPINE AHI: 83
LATERAL AHI: 2.6-12.8
PSG4:
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AHI: 17
SUPINE AHI: 66.5
LATERAL AHI: 1.5-2.6
Now, this is comparing the 11/2003 data to the 09/2004 data. If you compare the more recent 03/2004 data to the 09/2004 Pillar data, the results are even more pronounced. The AHI went from 29.5 to 17 just with Pillar.
Go hang your head in shame. Everyone knows who is telling the truth and who isn't. The data is right there for everyone to make up their own mind.
You, in the meantime, keep being anonymouse. |
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Paul
Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 217
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| Posted: December 20 2005 Post subject: |
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Stoboy,
You said:
| Quote: | | If I get time tonight I'll post scans of my two sleep studies that show a 50% reduction in RDI with just the use of pillar alone. But why bother, when instead of the elimination of the palatal related apnea, he'll spend another post talking about how pillar isn't a "cure" since it only reduced it 50%? And I have a life outside of this during a busy holiday week. |
Please, I know it's a hassle but you don't know how many people that would help out. You know they are watching these threads. Block your name if you wish to not reveal it, but this type of hard data is going to be very beneficial to people who are not complying with their CPAP treatment.
We may just save the life of a child in a minivan across the lane of the highway from someone who falls asleep at the wheel because they couldn't comply with CPAP. We may save many lives.
-PaulY |
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