Brain damage leads to lack of dreaming, interesting article

Sleeping Lizard · Joined: 10 Dec 2003 Posts: 1161

This interesting article refers to the study of a patient who had a small stroke which effected her vision short term. The long term effect was the fact that she stoped dreaming. It would be interesting to read the orriginal article, and find out if she is missing REM or not.

http://sleepdisorders.about.com/od/dreams/a/dreamworld.htm

yorkylover · Joined: 05 Aug 2004 Posts: 33

A friends husband had a sleep study and it said he never dreamed. Don't really know what that means. They just gave him some medicine to keep him awake during the day......

rested gal · Joined: 18 Mar 2004 Posts: 2078

Most interesting, SL. And yes, it would be interesting to know if the woman really was not having REM and/or dreams anymore, or if she was still having dreams but simply not remembering them.

Jim Swanson · Joined: 02 Jan 2004 Posts: 100

I think the answer is "you dream during REM. If you don't get REM, you don't dream". I am not sure if that is correct for certain. You most often have a REM stage just prior to waking. If you awaken from REM, you are likely to remember dreaming. Men (pysically able) will experience the residual erection from REM (it has absolutely nothing to do with 'pee-erection). But with disturbed sleep you may not be getting stages 3 & 4 sleep and REM. The explanation that sits well with me is that deep sleep (3&4) are restorative for the body and REM for the mind. That fits my problems anyway. It seems that most docs are hung up on oxygen saturation and ignore the rest.

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A friends husband had a sleep study and it said he never dreamed. Don't really know what that means. They just gave him some medicine to keep him awake during the day......
The MSLT is for narcolepsy. Narcoleptics go straight into REM. Most likely he was given Provigil.

Sleeping Lizard · Joined: 10 Dec 2003 Posts: 1161

One can dream during stage one sleep.

<dizzy> · Guest

I agree with Dopey, no REM no dreaming.

These guys must all be in REM:

rested gal · Joined: 18 Mar 2004 Posts: 2078

LOL, Dizzy! That looks like a nightmare!!!

<Debbie> · Guest

Dopey's on the money; no REM, no dreams!!!!!

Jim Swanson · Joined: 02 Jan 2004 Posts: 100

Dizzy, You need some kind of reward for that one! Thanks for making my week. Regarding dreaming in stage 1 (or other) sleep. Maybe it is possible, I'm not sure. But there are so many disorders, it could be a sort of hallucination. I guess it is really not that important for most of us, but "Promise of Sleep" is a great start to understanding sleep. It is also gives an understanding of the state of sleep medicine. Compared to most areas of medicine, sleep is still snoozin in the 50's. I do not know if anyone has yet discovered the purpose of stages 1 and 2 sleep. I find that incredible, especially since so much time is in those stages.

bieglpd · Joined: 18 Sep 2004 Posts: 100 Location: Cromwell, CT

Interesting....
I also found this article: http://www.straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/health/story/0,4395,272477,00.html

>>They monitored the woman's brainwaves for six weeks as she slept.

Her sleep was not disrupted, and she continued to have REM (rapid eye movement) sleep as normal.

This is significant because dreaming and REM sleep occur together, although research has pointed to different brain systems underlying the two.
>>

rested gal · Joined: 18 Mar 2004 Posts: 2078

This is fascinating. I still don't understand if there was a way the researchers could actually tell if the woman was having dreams but not remembering them. Even when she was awakened immediately while in REM it only says she "denied" dreaming. Doesn't say if there was a way the researchers could know if she was correct about that or not. Sounded like all they could do was take her word for it. The PSG indicated she was in REM each time they awakened her. Perhaps she was having dreams but the damage was such that she simply couldn't remember any dream even upon being wakened in the midst of it during REM? Perhaps instead of "total dream loss" it's a matter of "total loss of capability to recall a dream".

From: PubMed: Ann Neurol. 2004 Sep 10 [Epub ahead of print]

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Ann Neurol. 2004 Sep 10 [Epub ahead of print] Related Articles, Links

Total dream loss: A distinct neuropsychological dysfunction after bilateral PCA stroke.

Bischof M, Bassetti CL.

Department of Neurology, University Hospital of Bern, Bern, Switzerland.

The term Charcot-Wilbrand syndrome (CWS) denotes dream loss following focal brain damage. We report the first case of CWS, in whom neuropsychological functions, extension of the underlying lesion, and sleep architecture changes were assessed. A 73-year-old woman reported a total dream loss after acute, bilateral occipital artery infarction (including the right inferior lingual gyrus), which lasted for over 3 months. In the absence of sleep-wake complaints and (other) neuropsychological deficits, polysomnography demonstrated an essentially normal sleep architecture with preservation of REM sleep. Dreaming was denied also after repeated awakenings from REM sleep. This observation suggests that CWS (1) can represent a distinct and isolated neuropsychological manifestation of deep occipital lobe damage, and (2) may occur in the absence of detectable REM sleep abnormalities. Ann Neurol 2004

This is verging on: "if a tree falls... etc."

rested gal · Joined: 18 Mar 2004 Posts: 2078

A bit more about the study: FRIDAY, Sept. 10 (HealthDayNews)

Excerpt:

Dr. Orrin Devinsky, a neurologist at New York University Medical Center, said, "Dreaming is very much a biological function, and like all behavior we manifest as people, it is served by areas or networks in the brain."

"Since even in REM she did not recall her dreams, it does suggest that those areas damaged were critical for either generating dreams or for recalling dreams," Devinsky said.

Eventually, the woman did begin dreaming again. She reported having about one dream a week a year after the stroke, though she said they were less vivid than her previous dreams.

Sleeping Lizard · Joined: 10 Dec 2003 Posts: 1161

Thanks for the update rested.

The following are links of varying credibility indicating the dreaming can occur durring all stages of sleep.

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One sleep cycle comprises of four stages and last for about 90-120 minutes. Dreams can occur in any of the four stages of sleep but the most vivid and memorable dreams occur in the last stage of sleep (also commonly referred to as REM sleep). The sleep cycle repeats itself about an average of four to five times per night, but may repeat as many as seven times. Thus, you can see how a person can have several different dreams in one night. Most people, however, only remember dreams that occur closer toward the morning when they are about to get up. But just because you can't remember those dreams does not mean that
they never happened. Some people swear on the fact that they simply do not dream when in reality, they just don't remember their dreams.
http://www.dreammoods.com/dreaminformation/dreamresearch.htm

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[ September 26, 2004: Message edited by: Sleeping Lizard ]

Sleeping Lizard · Joined: 10 Dec 2003 Posts: 1161

Thanks for the update rested.

The following are links of varying credibility indicating the dreaming can occur durring stage 1 sleep.

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One sleep cycle comprises of four stages and last for about 90-120 minutes. Dreams can occur in any of the four stages of sleep but the most vivid and memorable dreams occur in the last stage of sleep (also commonly referred to as REM sleep). The sleep cycle repeats itself about an average of four to five times per night, but may repeat as many as seven times. Thus, you can see how a person can have several different dreams in one night. Most people, however, only remember dreams that occur closer toward the morning when they are about to get up. But just because you can't remember those dreams does not mean that
they never happened. Some people swear on the fact that they simply do not dream when in reality, they just don't remember their dreams.
http://www.dreammoods.com/dreaminformation/dreamresearch.htm

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The World of Dreams

Whether we'd like to admit it or not, whether we are able to remember them or not, we all dream. People awakened from REM periods in sleep experiments report they've been dreaming 80%- 100% of the time. REM dreams are considered to be more perceptual and emotional as opposed to NREM (non-rapid eye-movement)dreams. Content of NREM dreams is often a recreation of some psychologically important event. According to Freud REM dreams are like primary-process thinking which is often unrealistic and emotional, and NREM dreams are like secondary-process thinking which is more realistic (Franken, 1988).

http://www.csun.edu/~vcpsy00h/students/dreams.htm

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Dreams occur during all stages of sleep.

(Am Fam Physician 2000;61:2037-42,2044.)

http://www.aafp.org/afp/20000401/2037.html

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I appologise for the lack of substance to the refernces, but I'm a bit lazy tonight.

[ September 26, 2004: Message edited by: Sleeping Lizard ]

Sleeping Lizard · Joined: 10 Dec 2003 Posts: 1161

Here is an abstract to an article that seems to be about if not the same thing. It seems the sleepy cycle was normal. This abstract is well worded and gives a lot more info.

http://www.websciences.org/cftemplate/NAPS/indiv.cfm?ID=20043512