Delayed sleep phase syndrome...HELP!

[JMF]

Hi there. I'm new to this board and just have to vent about my delayed sleep phase syndrome. I have had this for probably the last 15 years (I'm 36)and it's only gotten progressively worse. I fall asleep around 7 or 8 in the morning and sleep until 2 or 3 in the afternoon. Even then I struggle to get out of bed. I'm not working right now so it's not so bad, but it's also one of the reasons I lost my job. I could never make it to work on time. I have tried to change my sleep cycle by depriving myself of sleep and forcing a 'normal' schedule. But I am in such a miserable mood until labout 1 in the afternoon even though I got 8 hours of sleep. I just feel tired and like I should still be in bed. I can't concentrate unti llater in the afternoon. I feel great and completely alert around 9 or 10 at night. It's finally coming to a head and completely interfering with my life and I have bouts of depression all because of sleep! I have taken every benzo (xanax, klonopin, valium, ativan) along with ambien. They actually worked, but now I have addiction issues and my doctors are making me do an outpatient rehab along with more sleep studies. I can't find a 3rd shift job in my career, so I'm really thinking about just going back on the pills and finding different doctors. Thanks for listening. Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. JMF

[sleepinglizard]

Here is a link to an abstract to an article which suggests that melatonin can be used to help stabolize the sleep of people with carcadian rythm disorders.
http://www.websciences.org/cftemplate/NAPS/indiv.cfm?ID=20044664

[llauureen]

I am also afflicted with DSPS - my sleep doctor told me to try light therapy. It will tell your body to "wake up" in the morning (set it to an hour before you actually wake up - dawn simulation) and sit in front of it for about 10 minutes a day. Melatonin at night helps me to fall asleep as well.

Unfortunately, due to my apnea, the light therapy did nothing - but it may work for you if you just have DSPS.
Good luck!

[snamvar]

Hi,
I have DSPS too and have suffered for the past 20 years. I got the worst insomnia, when I started working
I know exactly what you mean by lack of concentration. I also have depression and have tried all the different pills. I also got diagnosed with Apnea last year and currenty using CPAP
Do yourself a favor and go to a sleep lap in your nearest hospital. Light therapy, Melatonin are all helpful, but a sleep study would give you much more info and chance of getting the right treatment. Best wishes

[JMF]

Thanks for your replies! I have a sleep study scheduled this week and should know the results couple weeks after that. I'm supposed to make an appointment with a sleep psychologist too. Between my therapist and psychiatrist, my head should be the size of a pea soon. I might have some form of apnea too I suspect. I give you all an update soon. JMF

[<Charlie>]

Hi I have DSPS big time. I think I was born with DSPS. I can remember being 5 and my mom dragging me out of bed, and this happend for the next decade or so. I'm going to see a sleep specialist, not anyone hokey, they had better specialize in DSPS. DSPS causes me depression and depression causes my DSPS to worsen, what a cycle.

What I HAVEN'T found yet, but REALLY want to know, are results of people who went to see a dsps specialist.

[<Charlie>]

A long time ago, psychologist once told me to do chronotherapy when I told him about my crazy sleep. I tried the chrono, and it put me in BOUT OF DEPRESSION. as a result of the chrono, the good sleeping habits lasted some months, and went back to dsps again.

i did web research and tried to self diagnose myself w/ melatonin. that crap gives me a headache and "wacks" me out. so i quit.

i tried vitamin b12, i don't know how long i did it, but didn't see much a difference.

i went out outside. it helps but isn't any cure. i still got dsps, just less maybe. excercise helps a little.

what else. my normal side of the family thinks i'm koo koo. my dsps side of the family could care less because they have it too.

my next cure besides going to a dsps specialist is getting myself a dog, because then I'll have to walk in the morning, and play with it. of course i like dogs too, so i'm not just using my dog to cure my dsps ok. my cat is not helping my dsps because she is a nocturnal animal, and everytime i see her sleeping during the day i wanna sleep, and when i see her wake at night i wanna wake too.

my life has been ruined by dsps: loss jobs, no social life, kicked out of class for being late all the time, you name it.

right now, i'm towards the end of doing self help chronotherapy for myself. now i'm at this stage in my chrono: 7pm wake up sleep at 4am. this is my second time doing chrono. like i said it puts me into depression.

i would ideally like to sleep between 7pm-11pm, wake up between 4am-8am. but that often goes out the window. sleeping near midnight is DEADLY for me, as it starts my dsps tendencies.

my body is CRAZY. it likes to sleep crazy late, but the result is that the body is depressed when it does this.

i feel like me and my body are two different beings. i want one thing, my body wants another. it gets what it wants, and then it doesn't like it. ie it gets to sleep crazy late, but then i'm depressed, feel "wacked out," etc.

[Campion]

I hate to tell you this, but having the dog hasn't helped me. She turned into a night owl along with me! So, you mentioned your DSPS "side of the family." I've always wondered if other people thought it ran in the family. It seems like everyone on my dad's side has it (including my siblings) to one degree or another. It's just that of my generation, I've got it the worst.

[JMF]

I had my sleep study a couple of days ago. I went in at 8am and slept until 3pm. They had all sorts of wires and crap hooked up to me. It's like I want them to find anything, but I feel exhausted all the time. Even when I get my 8 hours of sleep (during the day of course!). I'm also supposed to see this sleep psychologist, but I already see a psycholgist and a psychiatrist/ My head is going to be the size of a pea! Charlie, I know what you mean about the depression. I have it too all because I can't get into a routine or normal sleep pattern. My friends think I'm just "lazy." And at work they though I was "out of it." Well I was canned and have to find a new job now, but I already missed an interview because I slept though the alarm--at 3 in the afternoon! Not happy. JMF

[<Charlie>]

Hi,

I haven't really found a message board dedicated to DSPS, so this is the closest one I found.

I got some koo koo problems that snowball on top of each other: chronic allergies, chronic procrastination, and chronic DSPS.
I get tired, and get allergy attacks several times a week that knocks me out, so sleeping during the day due to my allergies, doesn't help my DSPS tendencies. I've got chronic procrastination problem as well. I do everything last minute, so therefore, often stay up late to finish things, which doesn't help DSPS. All this snowballing cause me depression.

So I have joined an allergy board, a procrastination board, and now a sleep board. I'm also going to see an allergist, a sleep doctor, and a procrastination doctor. I'm koo koo. The information I discover is useful.

I find that www.healthboards.com is useful. I'm not sure it talks too much about dsps, but there's depression and allergies and a bunch of other stuff on there. www.sleepnet.com is helpful, but you have to search for dsps threads.

If I don't control my body and sleep, my body sleeps in ALL SORTS of time frames around the clock, BUT skips the "night time sleeping frames." How annoying. Sometimes I say "F it, body, you do what you want." You know what it did? It kept advancing sleep around the clock until it hit the 11am mark to go to bed. My body was not able to go pass this mark, but BOY WAS I WACKED OUT w/ depression, headache, and big time "jitters." This is when I decided to do chrono. My body drives me INSANE. Normal people think I'm hella koo koo, and I always wished to be normal. Normal people "don't get this"- only you guys do.

My relative goes, "I'm sure if I made myself sleep during the day I could. So why don't you just make yourself sleep at night"? I wanna say dumbass, if it was that easy for me, you think I would volunteer this torture upon myself? I tried to explain it to her and all she said was that's wierd. I said you try telling your narcolepsy mom to stay awake during the day, and sleep 8 hours a night in one lump sum, instead of 4 hours here, 3 hours there, 1 hour here. I said you can't do it can you? Well, that's like telling me to sleep nights. It is a constant struggle.

And on my earlier post I meant that I slept at 7pm, and woke up at 4am. Right now, I'm sleeping at 11pm, waking at 8am. We'll see how long this lasts for.. It'll probably just be like my other billion attempts. I also go outside in the morning and stand around for a little bit in the sun. I try to control my allergies like a mad woman so that I don't get attacks, and fall asleep during the day.

I have had jobs that started in the afternoons. My body just advances until I have to rush for freaking jobs that start at 2-4pm! So JMF, I TOTALLY know what you talking about! (I'm not working now either, and I have also missed interviews.)So I'm like, if I experience this in the afternoon, mine as well do the suffering of waking up in the morning like "normal people." I won't need to rush if I had a job that started at 9pm, but that will cause me depression to wake and work those hours, knowing everyone is finished with work and asleep, while I'm toiling away. I also don't like being working at night- I get scared. Ideally I'm happiest when I can "fake" being NORMAL like everyone else. But it does wear me out.

I too, have forced trying to stay up many hours until night time came again, so I'd go to bed. When nighttime came, I couldn't go to bed!! But come daylight, my body WANTS to go to bed!!

My relative told me to trick myself by making it dark in my room when it's day out, and make it light in my room when it's night out. Haven't tried that yet. I've had 4 alarm clocks before. I get up to turn it off and go back to bed. When I was on vampire schedule, I tried to trick myself by changing the pm on my clock to am, etc. (didn't work.)

I *DO NOT* want to take any medicine for dsps like anti depressants (I've heard peole being prescribed anti depressants for dsps.) I've had allergies for 20 years now, and my allergies have gotten worse, and does not react to medicine like how it used to. I've heard good and bad things about medicine. The bad things I heard about anti depressants, is all those wacky side effects, addiction, it doesn't seem like a long term cure, etc.

My entire immediate family has dsps. My brother has it hardcore, my mom has it medium-hardcore, my dad isn't around, but wouldn't be surprised if he had it too. My mom thinks waking up at 7am is crazy, She stays up till 4/5am watching movies. Her job is from 1/2pm-8/9pm. Some other people in my extended family has hardcore narcolepsy. But there are the "normals" in my extended family as well.

Sorry for the long post and rant, but thanks for reading. I guess I have really summed it up.

-Charlie

PS, does anyone else have a problem registering to be a member on this board? I can't seem to register. It keeps wanting me to download a ultimatebb.cgi file when I press submit to register. Then, it keeps saying board is flooded, you cannot post until 60 seconds later. It keeps looping this even after waiting 60 secs. I have emailed board admin already. Bottom line- I cannot register. So I gave up. Anyone experienced this??

[<IM>]

Other people with DSPS!! I’ve never actually talked to someone else with it! My own experience with DSPS is SO SIMILAR those all of you have described. I was diagnosed 15 years ago (14 years old), when DSPS seemed even more bizarre that it does today.

I have experienced some relief from medications and light therapy, but THE BEST TYPE OF "TREATMENT" IS A FLEXIBLE SCHEDULE!

I’m lucky, since I started grad school, I’ve been able to avoid that horrendous 9-5 schedule. For me, being forced to conform to a “normal” schedule causes chronic sleep deprivation, makes me miserable, and causes depression. In effect, regular schedules are DISABLING. In the future when I need a job with regular hours, I plan to ask for accommodations on the basis of disability (DSPS). I only wish that DSPS wasn’t such an obscure disorder!

It took me a while to figure out the best medications. Now I’m on adderall, elavil and wellbutrin. I have been taking forms of amphetamines for 9 years now (in fact, I had the best response from methamphetamine) and have not developed an addiction. I also have ADD, which influences the medications I take.. . . .

I have a question for all of you: do you ever sleep until the evening? About 6 or 7 pm? Last Sunday I slept until 9 pm. I only sleep that late once or twice a month, but I think its sort of shocking and it worries me a bit. Sometimes I fell like my circadian rhythm is not just delayed, but also irregular. I also notice that my sleep shifts even further during the winter. Have any of you experienced this?

Look forward to learning from you!

[Tracy]

I have severe sleep apnea AND DSPS. I started using light therapy about 6 months ago for the DSPS with fantastic results!
I use the GOLITE by Apollo

You should go to the APOLLO web site and take the assessment test to see if this therapy would help you.

Taking the test also lets you know when to use the light therapy. I always assumed that light therapy should be used in the morning hours, but for us with DSPS, or me at least, it is used in the evening hours.

Interestingly, it took only about one weeks use for me to notice a big difference in my ability to fall asleep.

[<Charlie>]

Tracy,

That Appollo link you included was incredibly helpful to me. I found out a lot about myself doing that assessment test and reading about circadium disorders on that website-- now I know why simple things like waking up, and sleeping at night, and being energetic is so freaking difficult-- it's because my body is wacked out, producing wrong hormones, chemicals, etc, at wrong times, the body is confused, etc.

And now I know why I'm often tired: from DSPS and from allergies, not to mention, depression, which is contributed by all this. Aha.

I am excited to start lightbox therapy like you. I was doing alright w/ natural light when it was sunny, but lately, it's been rainy and gloomy, and I advanced my wake/sleep cycle by an hour. (

PS, IM, you asked if anyone has slept till 6pm-9pm-- Answer: I have! And it makes me feel wacked out and ridiculous; that's when I said F it, and did self chrono... I wasn't waking at 6pm-9pm all the time, but it happened enough to where I got fed up with it.. I know whatchoo talkin bout!

Thanks for the info,
Charlie

[<creative>]

How about this angle of DSPS?....

The connection (if any) between DSPS and a highly creative, intellectual and artistic mind.


I've been doing research and looking into causes of DSPS. I've read about all the biological stuff and depression and whatnot but I feel my reasons might just be mental, by choice.

What I mean is that I (as well as others) consider myself a highly creative, artistic and highly intellectual individual. I have some problems with the mainstream way of doing things and the mainstream 'simpleton' type crowd (no offense. It's just most times, it's not me, that's all).

I tried working the 9-5 and it just didn't work too well. I was always tired in the morning; I would get to bed around 11pm or midnight and get up 6am. I worked better at 3rd shift but I felt so out of touch with the 'real' world, as I do now.
I haven't worked in some years and I feel this may also be a reason for the sleep problem. Lack of any structure in schedule or discipline in sleeping.

But back to the mind thing, I like being awake in the early morning hours. The world is quiet, I can think and focus. I can be my best creative. I can get so much more done without distractions. There is peace in the stillness. To go to a 24hr store is so nice.
Also, as stupid as it sounds, I feel too like I have an upperhand over most people. While they are sleeping, I 'own' the world. Well you know what I mean!! Come on now, I don't mean that seriously.

But of course, there is a flipside to all of this. There is a depression in feeling out of sync with the normal world. You tend to be hidden away more. This creates a viscious cycle causing more depression.

Also, what really stinks is when an appointment arrises which needs to be met in normal world times. So you have to rearrange your sleeping to eventually line up with this appointment.

When I sleep with no discipline/structure, I am all over the place, like doing a natural chrono. Like Charlie stated, advancing into each successive bracket till you end up going to bed at a normal time in the evening.

So...I like it and I don't like it! This whole off-sleeping thing! If I were to way it out on a scale, I suppose I'd prefer to just be normal and sleep when others sleep. But I don't think I can do it without any structure/discipline of a job.

Last spring I was able to remain on a normal sleep pattern for a few months. It did feel great. I felt normal. I had many projects around the house and outside to do. It gave me some structure. Also the bright happy sun helped. Right now I'm up north and most likely experiencing SAD, so that doesn't help.
I'll see when the spring comes again, if I can be more successful at beating this whole thing.

But the main purpose of my post is to get some input, some help concerning what people may think about what I said above - the creative, intellectual, artistic people seeming to prefer to stay awake while others are sleeping. It is pretty common too.

What if someone tells us we might be built this way and should just accept it. I wonder if it really does affect our health. I mean after all, there are some nocturnal animals that were built that way. Do ALL humans really need to sleep at night? Maybe a few a designed to stay up at night to keep an eye on the sleeping ones!

I don't know. I'm torn between catering to my creative, intellectual, artistic side so that I don't jeapordize a possible future great invention or creation and between wanting and needing a 'normal' type life, mainly for the social aspect. I know if I want it bad enough, I can force myself to stay awake during the day. I just don't want it to be unnatural where I become miserable and nasty and running down my health. Maybe some people simply are not built for day operation.

Well, enough rambling from me!
Let me know what you think about the connection (if any) between DSPS and a highly creative, intellectual and artistic mind.

Thanks everyone!

[<Charlie>]

Hello Creative,

How's it going? I do agree with you (from my own point of view), that DSPS people seem more creative. The reason I say this is because since I have DSPS, I naturally gravitate to other vampires (ie, other DSPS people), and these other DSPS buddies of mine all seem pretty creative and intelligent. My "normal" buddies are boring as heck. (not to dog on normal people, because sometimes I think I often wanna trade off being boring and normal as oppose to what I suffer through) Most of my exes have DSPS. I often think my DSPS buddies would accomplish so much if their problems (DSPS, symtoms DSPS produces, etc.) did not exist. Heck, I know I'd be accomplishing a lot more if not for my chronic procrastination, DSPS, and allergies, and thus, depression. I want to be on a crusade to get my health back! I never realized how important my physical/mental/emotional health was until I got sick all the time, wasn't feeling mentally/emotionally healthy, ETC.

Similar to you Creative, I feel a lot of similar things you do, including that I often like the hours when I wake up at 4am, and I like those hours between 4am-7am-- the peace, quietness, early morning, etc. But shoot, I need 9 hours of sleep, so for that to happen for me, I'd have to sleep at 7pm??? Uh, no. (lol) Say goodbye to social life and favorite evening shows..

Also, when I am left to my own devices (ie no structure, etc), I am a bad girl. Since I kinda know my body better than I used to, I think structure is extremely important for me, job, school, projects, ETC. Otherwise, left to my own devices, I am a slave to unhealthy addictions (ie going on the computer, ETC.) (I don't do drugs, alcohol, etc, I'm not talking bout those kinds of addictions, I'm talking about other time waster addictions)

I realized since I get addicted to things (and I've gotten addicted to healthy things before as well), I think what's important for me is to get some structure, and get involved in healthy addictions, for example, sports, or something.

Ideally, I'd like to sleep at 10ish pm and wake at 7am. I'm willing to trade this off for all for all the uncomfortable things I feel because of DSPS.

I also like to sleep from 2am-12pm, but I know allowing myself to sleep near or past the midnight hour becomes DEADLY for me, because next thing I know, I will end up sleeping at 11am and waking up at 8/9pm.

I've slept in the most wackiest patterns you can imagine. There was even a time I slept twice a day, in 4hour increments. I don't think my body really liked the result of that..

As for you being torn (because of the creative aspect), that is tough. I don't know what to tell you. It doesn't affect me (being torn), as much as it does you.

I already know my body, and if it does what it wants to, ie stay up way late, I am one depressed soul, so I'll forfeit anything to be up earlier, so that I can avoid my depression. I tell you, when I was on utter vampire schedule, I was one depressed soul- I did my chrono, and my depression has lifted 10-fold.

I think when oppossums, cats, bats, and other nocturnal animals stay up late, they don't get depressed- I do.

If your body is wired at nighttime, and the results are good, and you are creative, that is an individual thing. But I know you express depression because of this from social isolation. My body is wired at nighttime, but my results are not good.

About sleep and other creative people I read about: I think Leonardo Da Vinci was a nite owl, and I know he had major depression. Da Vinci, was not only intelligent at art, but he was intelligent at a whole array of subjects, including math, science, etc, but he was never really able to hone in and just focus on one subject, however, his paintings took off, and I think became popular after his death. Benjamin Franklin I read, sleeps 10 hours a day. I think Franklin wakes up at 5am. Henry David Theoreau was a morning person, he said he loved the early morning hours, like at 4am. He writes about this stillness and peacefulness of the early morning hours in his poems, in a book called, "By Walden Pond." (?) But I think there are stories of creative people who are normal day people too, hehe.

Last thing- you mentioned you are up north, are you in Canada, or the U.S.?

-Charlie